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Talk:Tactical Surface Fighter/@comment-35881302-20180614184050/@comment-4391208-20180615045206
Why would we build TSF's in 1st place? I dont see enything it could do better than a tank, jet, drone, vtol etc. TSFs just happen to embody the best attributes of all three, as demanded by the settings; able to use terrain (and BETA bodies) like tanks to avoid direct retaliation by Lasers, able to achieve air speed comparable to aircraft, and far better VTOL and vectoring capabilities over helicopters, to the point where they can legitimately be called jump-jet troops. TSF's are huge in size and thats a major drawback from both fysical and tactical stand point... If we would fight man vs man war with TSF, it would be nothing else than an over sizes target practice for tanks, aa guns, infantry etc. We actually already see this in Schwarzesmarken, were rebels with standard rpg's destroy tsf's with ease. Also why do they have glowing lights/ bright color schemes? That just makes you easier target. There are just too many problems with TSF in combat against beta/humans. Eny tank,AA gun, Laser-class etc. would just laugh at you while shooting you to oblivion. If TSFs moved as the settings dictated, that would be a nonissue. Normal aircraft are just as vulnerable a target when sitting on the runway at the end of another gun scope. The rebels in Schwarzesmarken faced early TSFs with little to no countermeasures and in good terrain, with time to set up beforehand, and the Stasi units there were still somewhat unwilling to simply fire into East German property for fear of collateral. They were hunters of traitors, not the personal flail of some weed-addled despot. When a similar situation arose in TSFIA in the 1990s, two Soviet MiG-29s supporting counter-terrorist infantry were enough to smash similarly-armed insurgents. Lasers are set up in the story to be unerring anti-air. Aircraft would fare just as badly, tanks lack the maneuverability to overcome Destroyer lines, Tank swarms, and Grappler groups (they are still vulnerable to Lasers if within LOS, mind), and helicopters lack the control reactivity needed to evade Lasers (or jumping Tanks, for that matter). Mind, none of these are missing from the MLUL/A world - TSFs are simply projected to have the best of all three. It is also a sore point that Schwarzesmarken drops the ball on several occasions when it comes to the TSFs. Why is humanitys technology all over place? We can build huge mechs with god knows what computer systems etc. But this technology does not really carry to our other warmachines. Why dont we have: advanced tanks? Targeting systems? Upgraded infantry men with exoskeletons? Orbital kinetic weapon systems? Drones/Robots fighting with humanity? Laser weapons etc? OR IN FACT ENY OTHER ADVANCED STUFF!? If we can build something like TSF, we could also build metric ton of other types of weapon systems etc. The tanks are fairly advanced enough for shooting walking meat. The computer systems on TSFs are indeed powerful and sophisticated, but lack the fuzzy logic inherent to many real-world systems. This is part of the settings for MLUL/A. Exoskeleton-armed infantry exist, and in regularity. It is, however, an unfortunate meme that they are never depicted because the original VNs and Total Eclipse never prepared designs nor a long-enough airtime for them. Orbital bombardment is not used often because the main objective is to recapture land. There is little point to creating a couple thousand square kilometers of unusable land. The BETA will not suffer much, but humans will from the small strategic gain, hard-to-defend positions, and extended supply lines. That said, orbital bombardment is still used, especially in conjunction with Orbital Divers attempting to invade and subjugate a Hive. The problem is that in every instance until MLA the BETA have always managed to bring out double or triple the predicted number of enemies and turned the attempt into a failure. With regards to non-piloted machines, autopilot and automatic movement exists, but cannot fully emulate human evaluation of the tactical situation, and can only react to the ongoing situation and/or take orders from a master machine. Mind, this is more than what we had at the same date in the early 2000s. Human-controlled drones suffer from communication issues in anti-BETA combat due to heavy metal interference, reducing them to little more than their basic programming. The same goes for master-slave machine setups. Technology advancement is not equal. The principles and concepts of the technology in question, is one thing; actually adapting the technology from one platform to another takes time, effort, and most importantly, budget from the relevant parties. Why are TSF's underarmed? They have ONE gun and a tooth pick. Why dont they have point defense guns? Or in fact eny other weapons? With the price and resources required to build 1 TSF, we could build 5 Tanks all with their own main guns or 50-100 exoskeletons. TSFs usually have two main limbs and two sub-arms, usually intended for Assault Cannon carrying; specialized arms exist for melee weapons. The typical ranged weapon-type sub-arms are designed to be able to grab weapons from resupply canisters themselves, and the entirety of the Gun Sweeper role is to use multiple guns simultaneously. Knives are standard and usually reserved for anti-Tank-class actions, while Melee Halberds are specialist gear. Exoskeletons do exist, but at their size they are incapable of wielding the armaments required to easily take down the larger strains. Compared to TSFs, they are still vulnerable to Lasers, with the added dangers of being pinned by jumping Tank-class, etc. Battle tanks have great firepower, but lack the maneuverability to take down Laser-class and enable artillery support to come into play. Recoil would be also be problem for TSF's. Can they stay in balance once 120mm is launched? Can the joints in arms handle the weight of a gun and the recoil it brings? Shooting assault cannon would also have to be done in small burst, even stationary 40mm gun has problems when firing in full auto. Desing of auto cannon's barrel is also bit too large on some models to shoot 36mm rounds. There are multiple instances across the anime(s) and VNs of sub-arms supporting full Assault Cannon capabilities. Joints that connect jump unit to main body would also break easily(can they even hold the weight of a jump unit?) TSF would also not be able to take off or even flight. and even if it could it would be aerodynamical mess. Yet, they still work well enough in-series. Maintaining these things would also be a nightmare: When you make a design more complex, with more tech and fancy buttons, you also make it harder to repair, maintain, and more prone to break down. Its hard enough today to keep a M-1A2 Abrams properly maintained and to ship/drive parts to a base. Also logistics would be pretty hard to over come and expensive. There is no military equipment that isn't a maintenance nightmare from a non-military POV, and complexity is a necessity of the role envision for it. By that logic, sticks and stones would still be the premier weapons of war because soldiers cannot be trusted with anything more complex than a simple lever system. Tech increases complexity, but can also reduce required manual control. It's not a relationship that can be so easily quantified into more tech = more complex. Many also the point the fact they can go to places where tanks etc can't, But it also brings its own problem: Being bipedal. TSF would just sink into swamp or some other unstable surface. And could it even handle rocky terrain? When we cross difficult terrains such as rocky mountains etc. we have to constanly try to stay in balance so we dont fall over (usually with the help of hands). TSF face's this same problem. Imagine doing same thing but with weight of 65+tons. Environment testing does exist for TSFs. In any case, being purpose-made for Hive infiltration and flanking assault of Laser-class, most TSFs would handle all-terrain situations better than a single vehicle. As the settings and series show, standing upright is not an issue for them. TSF's are everything else but mobile and fast. Putting legs on a 65+ton war machine is going to make it slow-as-hell. Jump unit would most likely make them tip over once it puts enough thrust. TSF just fly trough cities, dodge with lighting speed between buildings but ignore the fact they dont even have the capacity to do such things. No TSF weight has been officially released. 65+ tons is at best an arbitrary assumption. In-series, TSFs also have no issues with any of such maneuvers. How are TSF's piloted only with 2 joysticks and bunch of buttons? And with only 1 pilot? Must be pretty hard to aim,fire,reload and move while operating radio, watching hud, maintaining engine powers etc. How do you reload enyway? do you have to do it manually or just hit R on keyboard? Is Cui's TSF also armed with "come at me" emote? or do you have to do that also manually with 2 joysticks? Having only one LCD screen to see outside of TSF is major disadvantage, once you'r optics fail you have no way of seeing outside. TSF controls are done primarily with joysticks, pedals, and heavily supported by neurolink capabilities and macro actions. TSFs also have some pilot adaptation capabilities, a large part of why motion training is important. Plenty of actual fighter craft are also single-pilot operated. In any case, seating arrangement depends on the cockpit block, which can be swapped between TSFs in a fairly easy manner. Training a pilot/mechanics would recuire meny years before they could use TSF. Also avarage time TSF pilot survives is 8 minutes. Thats tremendous mount of recources wasted for 8 MINUTES. There would also be some pretty high standards for even getting to pilot one. So 15 year old boys/girls out of some random highschool is quite unlikely. The way how pilots are connected to TSF would also recuire either certain hight and weight or custom build cockpit. (because neck, back and legs are locket with bolts into TSF. So someone with height of 160cm would not be able to use TSF who's pilot would be 180cm.) The 8 minutes is a myth preserved to scare new pilots; it hasn't been relevant since the F-15 was deployed in the 1980s. You could apply the same logic to a multi-million-dollar carrier craft that can be gutted by launching 30 anti-ship missiles at it, that together still cost less than the carrier's build cost, if not for the fact that the carrier would never be left to fend for itself. The Total Eclipse anime depicts a particularly high-key event in the Invasion of Japan, that has several different factors involved, like how a carrier would have its own fleet to defend itself. TSF controls are also primarily slaved to the exoskeleton fitted inside, which is in turn fitted to the assigned pilot's height and size details and can be easily adjusted. You are not supposed to randomly board another person's TSF, just like how actual fighter craft have assigned pilots, sometimes to the point of stenciling their names beside their cockpits. Where is all the ammo stored? Where is the engine/battery? '' The engines are in the Jump Units. The battery is a separate thing in the TSF's main body. Ammo storage depends entirely on the TSF in question; so far schematics have been presented for the Type-94 and the F-15. ''How do TSF/pilots stay intact during blue flag? Yuuya crashes his TSF all around the city but shrugs it off like its nothing. Crashing while going atleast 300km/h is gonna result in major dmg to both pilot and TSF. 300km/h is suicidally fast for movement in city areas. It is likely that he averaged around 150+km/h. In turning or snap maneuvers, it is, however, entirely possible to reach 300km/h and above. Actually slamming into a building at 300km/h is enough to heavily damage a TSF, as according to the sidestory VNs. Why is melee even a thing for TSF? Fighting in melee with TSF would be pretty clonky and slow. Why can TSF even cut another TSF with knife? Try hitting steel with sword and see what happens. And no making it bigger is not gonna solve the problem. If TSF knife can pierce another TSF, basic 20mm shell or even 50.cal would also be able to pierce it. Also most of the melee weapons are off horrible design. The knife melee is primarily meant for special situations, such as having to stab Tank-class off your wingman's machine. The Halberds are specialist weapons primarily wielded by frontline nations for when the press against the BETA is so dense that it is faster to engage them up front than shoot at them. As can be seen in East Germany's rejection of the Type-77 Halberd, there is no hard rule to the weapons. TSFs and their melee weapons are not made of steel or any metal, but carbon composites. In actual battle, you do what you need to do regardless of how ridiculous it seems in theory. Eny stealth TSF would also be complete waste of recources since it has too many surfaces/edges/profile to hide it from radar. '' The F-22A Raptor uses radar-absorbent coating. Furthermore, most TSF-TSF fights also take place under terrain influence, which introduces an entirely different angle to radar detection compared to a traditional aircraft's. ''If laser classes render aircraft useless does huge flying mech really solve the problem? According to the settings, yes, since it's a vehicle with flight, VTOL capability, and easily double a tank's firepower, if not range. TSFs also have the added advantage of near-instant direction change, which neither of the above 3 have; a vital point when enemy offensive ranged capability is measured to be near or at lightspeed. ''Square cube law just wrecks huge mechs etc. '' I don't know about you, but I find it in poor form to use real physics to evaluate the value of a work of fiction. I would rather look for internal consistency than an arbitrarily-set level of realism. In any case, TSFs do have hanging questions, as with anything in any form of fiction, but many of the ones you've asked have already been answered in some form across the series.